Happy New Year! From The PurWell Team


Kevin Morley Special


About Kevin

Dr. Kevin Morley is the head athletic trainer for the Nashville Predators of the NHL.  Prior to arriving in Nashville, Dr. Morley spent 14 years in the New Jersey Devils organization in a variety of roles, most recently as the head athletic trainer.  He holds a bachelor’s degree from James Madison University, a masters from the University of Florida, and a DAT from Florida International University.  He is a member of the NATA Cannabis Task Force and is a part of ongoing research on the effects of cannabinoids on sleep at the FIU Global Center of Excellence for  Cannabinoid Research & Education.

Kevin Morley Hempire

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Pete 0:01
All right, and welcome. Here we are at another episode of hempire. I’m Pete Bahrenberg. Here along with my good buddy and trusty CEO and founder of pure Well, Nick DeFrancesco. Nick, what’s up, my friend?

Nick 0:13
What’s going on? Pete? You know, I guess we love talking to people in hockey and today’s not any exception there. So why don’t we tell everybody who we have on today?

Pete 0:24
Well, we are lucky to have ourselves a definite pro in the industry. He’s athletic trainer from collegiate all the way up to the professional level we’re talking about, he’s dealt with major events like USA Hockey on the athletic team and staff, as well as Red Bull cliff diving team, the flu tag competition, ESPN, Summer X Games, as well as the winter ones. And now he, after 10 years of being on the medical staff of excuse me, the New Jersey Devils. We are now proud to be with the Nashville Predators. We’re talking to Dr. Kevin Morley. How you doing today, sir? Hey, guys, thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Excellent. Thanks for joining us. Sure.

Nick 1:01
Well, obviously, you know, we met a couple weeks ago, in Orlando, you know, at the cannabis and sports conference. And, you know, we were just, you know, started talking a little bit, I said, I’d love to have you on the show. Just love what you do. And you were telling me a little bit about FIU, the Global Center of Excellence for cannabinoid research and education. So why don’t you talk a little bit about your participation in that and what you do there. And then we’ll go from there.

Kevin Morley 1:28
Sure. So I started a Dr. of Athletic Director of Athletic Training program a couple of years ago. And as we, as a DHT program, there isn’t, it’s not a PhD, and it’s not an EDD, it’s not super, super research focus, it’s a terminal degree in the athletic training profession. And as part of that, we have a capstone project, which, you know, similar to a dissertation, or thesis at the masters level, it kind of it’s your culminating project to the end of your education. And so, you know, the edict was, you know, to really find something that’s interesting to you and find some that speaks to you don’t, don’t do this project, just to check the box. And we’ve all been guilty of that, certainly through academia, where you had to write a paper on something and you just picked something because it was either easy, or you felt like you could execute it relatively successfully. And that’s, this was the opposite of that. And so the charge was find something that’s interesting and useful for you, either professionally or personally, you know, I’d seen this is a couple years ago, and obviously, CBD was, you know, kind of becoming more and more prevalent and more out in the open specifically. And I didn’t really know anything about it. I said, Well, you know, my job is to help educate people, athletes, specifically, but you know, people in gentlemen, parents are baby boomers that are having their joints replaced. And they would ask me about, you know, topicals and CBD. And what’s the difference? And I the answer was, I don’t know, I had no idea. And I, you know, I felt like it was an opportunity for me to kind of partner that I wanted to, I hated the answer. I don’t know, I prefer the answer. I don’t know what I’m going to find out. And so it’s a pretty daunting topic, right? It’s a daunting subject. And so we just kind of FIU had, you know, one of the, you know, one of the leaders in cannabis education and health education specifically. And I said, well, let’s just kind of push put these two things together. And so I started kind of down the path of educating myself and started to educate my constituents. And again, my mom and my neighbor about, you know, CBD and the minor cannabinoids, and kind of how it can play a part. And we were able to, you know, put together some some studies, and there’s quite a few people at FIU and this Doctor of Athletic Training Program, who were, you know, I was the first one chronologically, but they’re the ones who are kind of continuing this path where we’re doing a lot of cool research on cannabinoids, specifically and minor cannabinoids. And it’s, it’s pretty interesting. It’s really exciting to be part of it. And I’ve graduated now and finished my doctorate and I’m still, you know, working with FIU and working through the center because stuff that’s so relevant to us today as athletes and as part of the sports profession and, and in truth, like as people, right, like everything hurts, right, this morning. My shoulder hurts. And so I mean, as, as people and as active population. You know, I want to know what’s out there. I wonder what’s available to me. And I think other people do too. And I’m helping to just try and connect the dots wherever I can.

Nick 4:16
No, I think, you know, you’re talking about minor cannabinoids. Right? That’s something that you’re passionate about. Yeah. And it’s really very misunderstood. I mean, isn’t it crazy how big the topic is in the industry of cannabis, and how much there is to learn and how much people really don’t know, you know, and even the experts don’t know a ton because of the fact we’re still they know a lot. Don’t get me wrong, but what I mean, there’s so much there’s so much more that’s going to be doing with you know, whatever we decide, we want to get together and really do some studies that we can get away with and things that you know, there’s a lot of yellow tape that we go through, but I

Kevin Morley 4:55
think part about the experts, they’re willing to say I don’t know. So you know what But my crusades, working in the sports medicine setting is that it worked with a lot of providers, right? physicians, nurse practitioners, physical therapists, occupational therapists, athletic trainers, and everybody in that space. And oftentimes, and I’m kind of baiting people, I guess sometimes we’ll say, hey, you know, you just did this shoulder surgery or, you know, you just you’re rehabbing an ACL and high school athlete or whatever, you know, if your patients or your clients ever asked you about CBD, and I don’t even generally try again, I live in Tennessee, and there’s no legal marijuana use in Tennessee. So I only talk about, you know, the cannabinoids. Say, Well, when did your patients ask you about this? And every, every provider I talk to, every time I ask a question, the answer is always yes. Everybody’s asking. And so I’ll say, oh, okay, that’s interesting. I have a, you know, a personal interest in CBD and CBN. And a lot of different things, you know, what do you say? And, you know, oftentimes people will tell me, providers will tell me, Well, I say that there’s not enough research on it, and I can’t recommend its use. And I’m like, you know, I appreciate you not say, appreciate not saying that, you know, CBD is bad for you, and you should never take it and go take, right, like,

Nick 6:14
we’re past that step. Right? That’s the first part.

Kevin Morley 6:21
So that’s kind of in you know, some of the things that we talked about at the Ministry weeks ago is that, you know, there’s, there is information and I, you know, I have a slide that I use when I do a talk like this, and I go into PubMed, which search scientific articles in scientific journals. And if you type in cannabis, or you type in cannabidiol, and type in cannabinol, or CBG, you know, if you type, like, you’re not getting 10 hits, you’re getting 10,000, hits, 20,000, hits 25,000. Now, to be clear, those are not all high level research journals, high level data, meta analyses, they’re not. But but some of them are. And so that’s kind of my point is that I understand that the high level data that we as you know, as a North American Medical Society are seeking, the level that it exists, is not where we would like it to be. Right? There’s more studies on Tylenol than there is on CBD. But there’s not none. And that’s kind of my point is that if people are asking, like people were asking me, and so I’m trying to learn, and I’m learning more every day, I recommend that same thing to the providers. And I follow it by saying, If this isn’t interesting to you, and you don’t have the bandwidth for it, or you just don’t really care, that’s okay, too. I would love to provide you resources to connect your patients with of people who can answer those questions. And that’s probably not going to be me, I’m I don’t, you know, I don’t have a consultancy, where I have 40 or 60 or 80 hours a week to provide that information. But there are people who do. And so again, for me, the the issue is always, you know, it’s a stop, right? The hard stuff like, ah, there’s no research kind of do what you want to Well, it’s not really true. And, you know, kind of net well, you and I have talked about previously is, I’m a safety guy, right? So this is like if at first student, you know, do no harm, and safety first. And so what I want people to know is, if you’re going to choose one of these products, this is what a COA is. And this is how you can access a COA. And this is a little bit about what it means. And then depending on your level of interest and your level of medical education, those things like we can have a little bit more detail of a conversation but taught people to pick a good product. And if it if it if it’s not for you, that’s okay. And if it is, that’s great, too. You know, I think again, it just comes back to, you know, I approach this from an educational perspective. And not from an advising person, I don’t really advise anybody to take anything, I advise them to find a safe product, but whatever they choose is for them to choose. That’s not my point of view. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of bad brands and companies out there, but there’s a lot of really good ones and a lot of really safe ones. So whichever one kind of speaks to each person, like formulations are different, the Terps are different, the flavonoids are different. And so it’s it’s daunting to try to figure out like, oh my god, it’s so overwhelming. It’s like picking a grill, there’s so many choices. I’m like, I don’t know, so I just don’t buy it. So it’s really overwhelming for people that get that. And so it’s a financial commitment, of course. And so for me, it just boils down to safety, and just kind of like trying to make an educated decision on what you choose and then just kind of, you know, figuring out what works for you.

Nick 9:43
And I think that’s kind of how we really started talking God, because we were talking about what we’re doing every single day to educate these doctors. We get the same you know, we only sell to most of our businesses, doctors, healthcare professionals, pharmacies, right so we’re having these conversations With these doctors every day, and you know, we like to always say that we have an education company with a CBD habit, right? And we hear these things that you’re hearing all the time. There’s not enough information, there’s not this, and they go well, and then we actually pull up papers from PubMed, just like you say, and everything else. And we go put put there is Doctor, like, there’s actually more than you would know. But are you interested in actually knowing the truth, or what’s really out there? And, and the way that we separate our product, and I know you’ve, you know, tried parallel and stuff like that, you’ve tried a lot of stuff, but we really separate ourselves from the rest of education first, differentiating your product because of ingredients and terpene profile, but also what you were saying, like the COA, you know, I don’t know many people know this, but I was the first one to put a QR code on a box for CBD years ago. Yeah. So this is something that I’ve been fighting for, you know, eight years. So what that QR code means is, is that you can with your phone, you can click on it, and you go to a COA, like doctors talking about and it will tell you everything that’s in and out of a product, what’s in it, meaning, you know, all the good things, the terpenes are the you know, the content of cannabinoids and things like that. But also what’s not in it, right? So like pesticides, and heavy metals and all this other stuff that people use, because you know, this isn’t a widget people right? This is this is something that is a natural plant. Right? So there are bugs, there are insects for how you’re going to treat it. We happen to use spice bombs, right. Some people use Roundup

Pete 11:38
don’t suggest the second even will have bottoms later on in life.

Nick 11:42
But what I’m saying is is and I love and I think that that’s what we’re talking about and why we connect it because it’s people don’t really understand what the other side you know, they only see CBD at maybe like a head shop or at an elite a lot of the dispensaries for cannabis. But the medical is really why I got into it and to help people right not to get you high. It’s actually helped with medical conditions. But why not? Would you take something from a gas station? No, of course not. Right? Would you take it from even when you go to a lot of the high end pharmacies when I say hi mo the chain pharmacies, they really don’t have a lot of information on on CBD, you go to their smaller medium chain, you know, that pharmacist is kind of like a doctor right? You can ask them questions. Hey, what do you think Mr. pharmacist, Mrs. pharmacist, and they usually give you an opinion, right? Well, you can’t really do that with CBD. So it’s important that the doctors aren’t educated. And we are split 5050. Right, there’s 50% of the doctors are like, Hey, this is great. I think that this could help with sight of you know, no side effects, no contraindications, no drug on drug variations. And then there’s other doctors that are saying, which I think is ignorance. No, there’s no information. There is no, I mean, you just talking about your minor cannabinoids is huge. I mean, the fact is, is that there’s so many other things than just CBD and THC. You know, there’s, there’s hundreds, there’s, well, there’s not hundreds of them. But there’s there’s about there’s about 100 Now there’s, there’s about 167 About that they’ve uncovered but it turns sometimes there’s they say there’s 200, there’s 150. But there’s there’s definitely more than 100 at this point that they’ve that they’ve actually came up with. Well, right.

Kevin Morley 13:22
Because it’s like we’re, you know, when you when you talk about the minor, like you, we there’s 100 Plus, and we typically talk about like four of them. Right? Right. So which is overwhelming. So it’s equal parts of like, overwhelming and scary and exciting. So think about how much benefit could potentially be realized from learning about the different cannabinoids. And, you know, obviously, I’m not on the production side. But you know, in terms of as your as you’re, as you’re, you know, formulating your product, and you you know, and I joke about, you know, the the recipe, right? Well, this is very CBG forward, this is very CBD for but it’s a broad spectrum, it’s a full spectrum product. So it’s going to have other things in there too. And, you know, as companies and provider manufacturers are learning how to kind of modify the recipes. The good part, and the scary part is that there’s so much variability, and you may be able to reproduce your product, essentially perfectly right, I get that part. But how each product affects different people is so right. Right. And I think that from a provider perspective, that part is really overwhelming and a little scary too because the people asked me so like what my one of my most significant personal interests is relative to CBN and sleep. And a lot of people talk about how CB N really helps them sleep. If you follow the research, there’s some there is some research there’s also some articles which is of course a step down from research right that are talking But how? Maybe it doesn’t. And I’m like, That’s cool, but maybe it does too. And if it’s not hurting somebody, then you know, when people ask me about, oh, I have trouble sleeping, I take CBD say, well, that’s great. Try that, see how it goes, if you’re not feeling much of a difference, you know, we talked about start low and go slow. And we talked about increasing your dosage over time, we talked about the different forms or the different modes of administration, because you’re not going to one gel cap and then just be asleep in five minutes. That’s not how it works, right? So after we cover that, if sleep is the issue, a lot of times they’ll say, Well, you know, another product that’s in the same space, you know, it’s like, CBD is brother or sister, right? And it’s called CBN. CBN. helps a lot of people. We know that anecdotally, I don’t, you know, that’s one of the studies that we are working on at FIU is to try and have a little bit of a more significant correlation between, you know, people, we have a multiple multi tiered, with two different doses of CBN. And then a placebo dose, we’re gonna give people asleep questionnaire every day, it’s just the other, it’s totally anonymous, it’s via their phone or tablet or whatever. And everyday, they’ll wake up and answer like, 10 questions about how well they fell asleep, how well they stayed asleep, and how they felt when they woke up, right? Because people want to wake up and feel like real groggy, and, you know, foggy, those sorts of things. And so that’s my personal interest. And so that said, if CBD helps somebody sleep, Awesome, that’s great. We’ve, you know, I’d rather you this, this is my personal opinion is I’d rather you take a cannabinoid product than Ambien, that’s my personal opinion.

Nick 16:38
We love you saying that 100%

Kevin Morley 16:41
People make whatever choice they make. And obviously, depending on who’s advising them that will help, you know, steer them one direction or the other. And that’s okay. But again, I like to just provide information education. So oftentimes, when people if people are asking you that question, that tells me already that they’re interested in, they’re interested in and willing to take an abdomen product. And so they might say, Oh, I tried CBD, and you know, and it’s not helping me sleep. So I’m like, Well, you know, CBN oftentimes helps people sleep, I’m not telling you that CBM is going to help you sleep. And I’m not telling you that it’s that it helps everybody sleep, I’m saying CBN often helps people sleep, that would be the next thing that I would try it. There’s just so many options. And

Nick 17:20
I think now let me ask you, I don’t mean to put you on the spot. I don’t want to put you on the spot. But I’m gonna have to ask you this. I have to. You’ve tried pure sleep. Yeah, you do a lot of stuff. Yeah, what was your honest opinion.

Kevin Morley 17:33
So here’s the thing with me and sleep is I have no problem sleeping. My problem is that I don’t sleep enough. And that’s completely self imposed. Because

Nick 17:44
I think that’s everybody’s problem.

Pete 17:46
A lot of it, they say, up and down.

Kevin Morley 17:49
Go to bed earlier. I don’t know, if I, I could probably sleep in a little bit later. And I choose not to because I say up a little bit later. And I like to get up and work out in the morning. And so my issue is not I don’t have trouble falling asleep, I don’t have trouble staying asleep. What’s interesting is that the first time I tried to CBN product, I woke up and you know, it wasn’t foggy or anything. And I said, you know, this, I can’t, I can’t necessarily describe it, or I can’t provide a lot of value, right? There’s only America, I feel more rested than I did yesterday or the day before. And, and I would say and this was before I you know, Nick and I had met I had I wasn’t familiar with their products. And having now since tried the piercing, I would say I felt the same way is that, you know, the formulation is different than some of the other formulations. They’re proud of CBN products. And, you know, and I, I believe in broad and full spectrum products. And, and I have the same result is I felt like I had, you know, a more recuperative sleep. It didn’t, you know, it doesn’t knock you out. It’s not like a Benadryl or something like that. And, and I had, you know, I felt better when I woke up, and that’s, you know, it’s hard because, for me, as the patient, that’s enough, but that’s all the information I need. And most people not all, most people would select your product for themselves would say the same thing, that they don’t necessarily care what a meta analysis says, or double blind PLACEBO control. People don’t necessarily some people care, but not all people do. And a lot of people say, Well, I don’t, it doesn’t matter to me, though. I want it safe. I want it legal. And if it works, it works. Right. And so like those are the bars relatively low, right, for the most part hard there’s a lot of products that will achieve those three things. And so and that’s what I tell people is that here’s a you know, I funny I think I showed you net when when I did that talking about it a few weeks ago is that we talked about CoA and I have a picture of the scanning a QR code and and then one of the slides I use is a COA of red flags. And there’s like this little like give the guy like jumping around with red Flat? doesn’t have one. Have one

Pete 20:05
is the product.

Nick 20:07
Right? You shouldn’t

Kevin Morley 20:09
feel shame, you probably spent five bucks on it. So throw it away lesson learned

Pete 20:12

Kevin Morley 20:15
It doesn’t have one and was did it come from the manufacturer? Like, again, that’s a pretty low bar.

Pete 20:21
So and it was a Photoshop, because sometimes the tape in the corner and you know, you don’t wanna mess with that.

Nick 20:28
Well, let’s, let’s back this up, though, because not everybody understands what we’re talking about. But so what and not I mean, so what happens is, is that the way that it should be is when you have a COA, a certificate of analysis, it should be done by a third party testing facilities, that’s obviously has all the certifications and things like that, if you’re making I mean, anybody could make again, Peters point, that make their own something and, you know,

Pete 20:58
take arts and crafts in school, and

Nick 21:00
so we want it to be third party verified. Okay. So that’s what we’re talking about here. And then the second part of that is, there’s actually another company that verifies that that CoA is correct. So there’s actually now two stages of third party. And so we do that, obviously, a parallel, we have green scientific, and then we also use verified hype. So there’s two different kinds of things. And we do that for that reason. And it’s because we are in a unique space, that even though it’s not regulated, per se, like everything else is in a lot of ways, it is, it does have the ability to show a COA, what’s in it, like, for example, if you went to the supermarket, you probably wouldn’t want to look at this way, some of the stuff on the shelves, because there’s a lot of funky things, if you listen, you read like an ingredient package and you go, I can’t pronounce that. I’m gonna be honest with you, if I can’t pronounce it, it’s not good for you. Okay, so that’s where I stand with ingredient, there’s

Pete 22:05
a hyphen or a

Nick 22:06
number not good for you. So, so that is a good thing. And that’s something that we’re trying to bet a lot of people are not aware of that doctor, so they understand that, what are we looking for? And why is this important that we do have this information in the good companies that are not always there. But if they are there tells you exactly what’s in it.

Kevin Morley 22:27
One thing that scares a lot of people, and I understand this is a lot of the education and you probably feel this pain, but a lot of the education is coming from the manufacturers. And so, and I think that people who don’t understand this festival, like, of course, Nick is going to tell me he’s got the cleanest product out there, of course, exactly how it works the best, like, why would I listen to him? And I understand that, you know, and so, as somebody who has, you know, of course, relationships, I don’t work for pure Well, I don’t work for anybody else. And so, you know, I always come back to that whole, like safety, efficacy legal, like, those are, you know, clean product. And so that’s I think there is, you know, you can search YouTube and Netflix, and there’s, there is a lot of information out there, but the people who are the most incentivized to provide the information, are the manufacturers themselves?

Nick 23:18
Absolutely, of course, I’m

Kevin Morley 23:20
happy to, you know, again, I don’t really steer people towards specific products, there are times when we send people away from certain products, but very seldom, maybe my mom, I might pick for her, but apart from that I don’t, you know, I tell people, you know, if you want to look at a few products and bring them to me, you know, I’m happy to help you look at them and decide what might be a better choice for you. But without knowing how each product is going to affect a person. I don’t know, if soluble CBD tincture versus a water soluble, I can explain to you the difference and explain to you how but I don’t know how it’s gonna affect you, each product is going to affect you, nor do I really know how it’s going to affect me. So as long as we’re safe, and then you know, especially in the cannabinoid space, it’s really easy to have these conversations in the cannabinoid space, less the psychoactive issues, right. So that’s a separate conversation. And for people who have a lot of utility in that space, that’s fantastic. But again, working in sports and working in us, I travel all the time all over the United States. I traveled all over North America. I’m going to Europe in a few weeks, like obviously Brittney Griner and she Kerry Richard said like those things couldn’t be more you know, prevalent and and timely, right? Like it’s a really big deal. And so we talked about how products because you know, thanks to the 2018 Farm Bill hemp products less than point 3% dry weight THC hemp products are legal throughout the United States, you know, likewise in Canada, so, you know, those are, that’s the space where I’m the most comfortable because I know the most about it. And I think that there’s fewer distractions when you talk about cannabinoids, specifically or hemp specifically

Nick 25:00
Well, yeah, you talked about the legal issues surrounding you know, the cannabinoids, and it couldn’t be more timely. Right. And, and, and what I guess what does that taught you too, though? I mean, uh, where we are, I mean, there’s just a lot of misconception, obviously different companies, or different countries have different regulations. I mean, we have athletes that come to us all the time, we happen to have a very well known UFC fighter happens to fight in one where’s he was in one number one country,

Pete 25:31
he was going to what’s called down to Singapore.

Nick 25:36
Singapore, right. So Singapore is highly illegal. I mean, it’s like, you know, serious felony, CBD, not even THC. So, for him to even say, look, I use the product here. And it works for me and great. Like, he can’t even take a picture with us, because, yeah, because it was it was gonna be like, because he’s mean, you know, where his major fights are? Are in Singapore. Yeah. So. So that being said, you know, and going back to, I got so much things to ask you. But um, it’s what I what I was going to ask you. And what I was really trying to say is, what do you think that tells us about what the vape laws are, like? Vape is obviously THC, THC is what we consider a vape. Right. So it’s not a CBD. But but it is THC, we’re still interstate going across, it still would be illegal. Right. So it’s not like, it’s that far off to where we are in the United States, whereas CBD I think is a lot more widespread. In a lot more countries. Now. It is opening up in Asia, it is opening up in some other places they are being a little bit more understanding of of the benefits, right? Because of the health benefits, not because this is a drug that people get addicted, or it hurts them in some way it actually is giving people relief. And so, you know, looking for for sure. You’re always talking to athletes, of course. And what are the athletes really want to know? I mean, what do they ask you specifically? I mean, so

Kevin Morley 27:11
they ask, I would say one of the biggest questions they I get is dosage. Like they typically don’t ask about route of administration. But for me with dosage, I talk about route of administration or method of administration together? Because I think when it comes to start the conversations, what are you trying to accomplish? So they’re obviously very potent anti inflammatory effects. Inflammation is the root of a lot of the pathology that I deal with, and the athletic space, whether that’s tendinopathies, or you know, acute injury, whether it’s from a POC or a sick, or they ran into the boards or into the person or something like that. So a lot of you know, what I deal with, you know, boils down to what we’re trying to accomplish this and the anti inflammatory effect. And so, so that’s the question was, what are you trying to accomplish? Question number two that I asked them is, what have you tried before? And what was your experience? Because if you know that, you know, a multi cannabinoid with equal parts of CBD, CBG. CBC, maybe that works well for you. All right, great. Well, I think we’ve got our answer, right. And so as we talk about that will do dosage is always the moving target. We always start with that start low and go slow. And so people, you know, guys will say, I work with, you know, men. And so guys will say, Well, you know, I’m six, three to 25, you’re telling me that I should take the same amount as my wife who’s 511 15. And I said, I’m not telling you that, what I am telling you is that it can and likely will affect you and your wife differently. And so I would give both of you the same recommendation, start low and go slow. And so the same way with alcohol affects different people differently. And you can have 10 people who have the same amount of alcohol, and some of them are functioning at a relatively high level, and some of them are asleep on the couch. And so, you know, now, so in the same way, I discussed with them how it is the frustration is that I can’t tell you the way I can with Tylenol. Advil, I know pretty much what’s gonna happen if you take two Tylenol, and I have a pretty good idea of what’s gonna happen if you take two Advil. But if you take 25 milligrams of CBD versus 50 versus 500, maybe four or 500, I can tell you But largely, I don’t really know. And doesn’t have to do with your size and your metabolism. Yeah, maybe. But it also has to do with the tone of your endocannabinoid system has to do with whatever else you have on board. It has to do with you hydration and your nutrition. And you know, what other welfare measures that you’re taking? So for all those reasons, I don’t know. And I have the answers to a lot of questions people asked me is I don’t know. And I’ve gotten more comfortable with that answer because I think I’m just telling you Truth. And again, oftentimes, like when we started, I’ll say, I don’t know. But either I’m going to find out for you or I’m going to help you find out. And this is how you’re going to find out is that but this

Nick 30:09
is, I’m sorry, but this is a major, what you’re talking about, though, for a doctor is like, mental overload overload, because what happens is, is that doctors do not like this answer. Because they’re so still learning say

Kevin Morley 30:25
this, because, you know, obviously, I’m not a medical physician. And so, you know, what I, what I always bring it back to is, this is what we know. And this is what we don’t know. And so, in, in truth, I think, a medical physician, an allopathic and osteopathic medical doctor and nurse practitioner, and Pa could probably say a lot of the same things. Because I’m certainly this doesn’t obviously, this isn’t something that unless it’s Epidiolex, this isn’t something that we’re prescribing. So it’s information. And so, always bring it to your business. These are, what the recommendations are the recommendations that you’ll get from the medical doctors who are both recommending or and or approving cannabis and the laws where there’s met in the states where there’s medical use, and even the people who aren’t, you know, the physicians who are part of the consortium that help you help advise patients, they’ll tell you the same thing. And you know, they can give you a lot of information about cannabis that I can’t, I don’t really know very much about cannabis at all. But what I know a lot of what I the things that I tell you about cannabinoids still pertain to the people who want more THC on board, and then they’re gonna have to find THC information somewhere else, I can’t provide it. But, but less that I can help guide you a little bit and just give you the information relative to the safe recommendations about you know, again, there’s so many choices and so that through players, and families in my mind get overwhelmed a lot. I don’t know what to pick up like, Dude, I get it. There’s a lot of choices. And as long as it’s safe, legal and healthy, then pick one. Start with Wii U

Nick 32:02
steer them more towards topicals, though. Okay, so because it because what I’m the reason why I’m getting to this before you answer this question is because let’s talk about the elephant in the room, right? Drug Testing. Okay, now, we’ve learned on hempire, that the NHL is a lot more lenient when it comes to cannabis testing, which is not the case in the NFL. And well, it’s it’s gotten a lot better in the NFL, and NBA and stuff like that. But it’s still not where the NHL is, I mean, Riley coat is on saying, you know, I would have been tested and they cared, I would have, I would have been positive every time they tested me. So that being said, answer that question more. Because are they caring about topicals? Just because they’re looking for topicals? Are they looking for something systemic that they take? Or, you know, obviously, just, you know, as opposed Yeah, because like topicals, don’t get you don’t go into the bloodstream as much for for everybody out there. So

Kevin Morley 33:00
obviously, I have to tread lightly on that one, because I can’t I’m not representing the NHL, I don’t really know. You know, there’s a third party group that manages all the drug testing. And so that group is collectively bargained by the NHL Players Association, the National Hockey League itself, at some level, some of the medical groups, etc. So, how that’s it? That’s not my purview, obviously, how that’s yeah, no,

Nick 33:22
no, I just mean, what the, what the athletes are asking you so. So,

Kevin Morley 33:28
you know, what leads largely our testing for our drugs of abuse and performance enhancing substances. Right. So that’s publicly available information. Beyond that what everyone’s doing has different levels of publicly available, most notably, obviously, the NCAA just in the last, you know, six or eight months, maybe this February is starting to come February, March. They level you know, they raised their, their threshold for a positive cannabis test used to be I think, 35 like nanograms per milliliter or milligrams per milliliter, and raised to 150. So, the sizable, yeah, so like, I make this joke, it’s not really a joke, because you don’t have to know what a milligram is. You don’t have to know what a leader is. You don’t have to know what anything is. Your math tells you that going from 35 to 150, is damn near five times. So I don’t follow the NCAA. I follow. You know, that was interesting to me, of course, because what the NCAA does is a really big deal, because other groups and

Pete 34:28
a lot of people fall off and we’ll

Kevin Morley 34:30
see what the NCAA is right? It’s like Medicare,

Nick 34:32
right? So, of course,

Kevin Morley 34:34
so it’s relevant for that reason, obviously, I’m not in a situation where NCAA levels or whatever report to me so to your point that to answer your question, is that right, anything topical, you know, does it get into your bloodstream obviously has a little bit of a ways to go and again, Hello, Jim. Yes, of course it can. It’s, it’s so diluted by the time it gets there. I don’t really have any concern about anything, Tom. Go in really any capacity, whether it’s a cannabinoid product or not. So people, people are fairly specific about their, they’re either like a topical person or they’re not. And so you have some athletes and you’ll see it on, you know, on TV when you’re watching NFL games or NBA games, wherever. Sometimes you’ll see somebody putting, you know, flex all or any number of different topical things on their neck or on their arm between plays, or, you know, if they have a locker room, sometimes when they like pan the locker before a game, you might see something with a roll on or something like that. People who like topicals, you know, I think there’s the there’s the visceral response, like, Oh, I’m putting this where it hurts. This is helping my arm because I’m rubbing it on my arm, right? I get it, right? It’s transdermal, it’s gonna go into that tissue. Is it magically going to fix everything? I don’t know, if it makes you feel better? Who cares? Right, you’re gonna

Pete 35:51
feel something most likely. Yeah. And that’s a starting way.

Kevin Morley 35:55
Yeah, so I feel the same way about, you know, hot stuff versus cold stuff versus the cannabinoid like, Whatever, whatever. Somebody says, Hey, what do you think about this with topicals? Again, you know, it’s not something that you’re ingesting. So you’re still putting on your body. So there’s some level of commitment there. But you know, I tell people, if you want to try it, try it and see how it goes. And if it works, great. If it doesn’t, that’s okay, too.

Nick 36:21
But do they lean more towards a topical? Versus like, No, not necessarily. Okay.

Kevin Morley 36:27
No, some people do and, and it’s so funny, because it’s also you know, a situation where some people might say, I want to put this on before a game, but then some people want to put on after the game, and some people want something that they want to put it on at night before they go to bed. And so these those decisions are just very, you know, I don’t want to overstate it by saying it’s a personal decision. I just mean, that is a very person specific decision.

Nick 36:52
Yeah. Just

Kevin Morley 36:56
see, see how it works for you if it makes you, if it’s like real gives you the tingles in your arm and helps it prevents you from falling asleep then don’t use it at night again. You know, I think it’s an unhealthy product. It just might not be something for us at night.

Nick 0:02
You know, it’s funny because, you know, we’re always trying to do things with different products, right? Like we have a long term anti inflammatory that we work on, we obviously have our sleep product, we do have topicals, we have all these different things. And you know, everything has their own place, right, like just said. But I think it’s taken us a real hard time to try to figure out what you went to. And before when you were touching on it on really making specific formulas for something that is such a major issue in not just professional sports, but in the nation. And with regular, everyday people, that these athletes are everyday people, right? They’re the same ones that just because you can’t they can’t sleep either. They’re going on plane, they’re, you know, they’re doing all this stuff. They’re all whelmed up from whatever they’re on. And, you know, even just pre workouts and stuff like that. But I just, we had been fighting this for such a long time. It’s so nice to have you on the show, because you’re letting people listen to what we hear every single day. But when we were trying to bring it in and innovate it. I mean, it’s imagine where we started seven years ago, five years ago, and have a custom formulation and say, Look, there’s something that really will help that doesn’t have side effects. You don’t have to take Advil, you don’t have I mean, these you gotta understand, doctor, there’s so many athletes that come on the show, and they’re like, I wish I had cannot and I had CBD. Because I was fed opiates. I was fed incense and I keep saying it on the show, but like you’re paying the price for like, they’re paying a price at big time. And they’re being fed these things like peds. And alterations are the least of the concerns. Where most people like oh my god, I’m gonna get an ulceration I could possibly die and stomach ulcers. No, no, there. These are like, it’s so bad. It’s so bad. So I’m so glad that all these athletes are really coming to you and saying, I want to try something in cannabis. I want to give this a shot.

Kevin Morley 2:03
Yeah, and what I’ll say I’m not Nick is, you know, we acknowledge that, you know, athletes or athletes are people to, and specific again to the sleep conversation. We don’t even I mean, again, I don’t even talk about cannabinoids until somebody asks me about cannabinoids. And oftentimes it’s like, pay my friend, teammate, wife, whomever recommended this or is trying this, what do you think? And that’s typically it’s kind of a grassroots like organic conversation simply how it starts. But when that does start and specific to sleep, it I don’t, the first thing on my mouth is not like, Oh, here’s 10 Different cannabinoid products you should drop. The first thing out of my mouth is, well, let’s talk about some behavioral modifications you can make first, because we talk about breathing, we talked about meditation, we talked about yoga, and we talk about blue light glasses and not staring at your phone. And we talked about caffeine, we talked about their diet, and all those things first, and then if the conversation then turns to Cameron’s cool like I can, I can, I can partake in that conversation, too. But let’s address you know, we’ll take that person first and address the behavioral issues first, because maybe you don’t need to take anything, I don’t really care if you take a cannabinoid or not, I’d love for you to not take Ambien, but apart from that, I don’t really care. So you know, if like the milk thing that your mom did, I don’t even know if that’s a thing anymore. I don’t give it to my kids. But because it’s um, but, you know, like, there, there are things that we can do. And there’s so many different apps and stuff on Netflix that can really help kind of center you before you wreck or games or at night. And they’re hopped up on adrenaline, and you know, caffeine, and testosterone and all these and then you know, and then immediately after game, we jumped on a plane and ever changing time zones. It’s wild. And so there’s so many things that are disrupting their rhythm and disrupting their endocannabinoid system and disrupting their homeostasis, that if we can help return them to homeostasis. You know, I talked about in some of my, when I do these talks for like more medical groups. I talked about the endocannabinoid system as the homeostasis restoration system, where we’re trying, that’s all we’re trying to accomplish. So your endocannabinoid system exists has existed for a long time. Nobody talked about it, because nobody really knew about it until the film started talking about in the 80s. Right. And so as the medical delivery system is learning more about we’re understanding better how to measure it. At one point there was an article I read that said, you have to know you could measure your endogenous endocannabinoid you know, to a G and a measure via Spinal Tap. Pretty invasive IRB is not going to prove that very often. Now the medical community is learning that there are other ways to measure your endocannabinoid system they call your endocannabinoid tone, right? And so there’s so many factors that disrupt that. So think about all the things that disrupt your homeostasis and you know, people don’t go you don’t want to eat a big meal right before bed. And so that’s easy when you’re home and you’re going to work at a normal time, it can be hard and normal time. But if I’m you know, in Calgary and eating dinner at 11 o’clock at night and and flying to Vancouver, or then flying back to Nashville or whatever, everything really gets kind of turned upside down. And so your internal clock is all screwed up. And it’s hard to reset that people have a different different abilities. And you know, in doing that some people, it’s really easy to change timezone. Some people, it’s really hard, and they’re sleeping about all those things are affected. And so, you know, there’s so many variables that you just controlling, I like to tell people identify the things you have control over the things that you don’t. And so with the things you have control over it, sometimes we make a list. And so it includes certainly it includes obviously what you’re putting your body relative to cannabinoids or other you know, other products, but it also includes your diet and includes how much you eat, and when you eat and all those things. And so there’s so the conversation is the conversation is not what should I take to help me sleep? And I say CBN and then they go away, and they sleep well, forever? That has never happened to me. I don’t think it ever will. Because the conversation would be more obviously continue to be a longer conversation. There’s so many things that affect it. And if CBM is great, if it’s not, that’s fine, too. But But I think it’s a conversation and it’s a progression, as opposed to just here’s the answer, unfortunately, my experience is that there isn’t one answer. There’s a lot of answers. And what works for you. And what works for the person next to is, unfortunately, probably not the same. So we have to really tailor and make it specific to each person. And it’s a trial and error. You know, as long as it’s safe and healthy illegal, then trial and error. Oh,

Pete 6:40
it has seemed to be right.

Nick 6:43
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it’s a huge point. And just because of the fact that I think that I don’t know how to say this in the fact that I wish that all healthcare was kind of that way, instead of what it has become with pharmaceuticals and things where they’re just like, take two of these and call me in the morning. Right? I mean, that’s I don’t

Pete 7:05
want you to call, they just want to take the take the two then take the two and then when you’re done, just come back for the refill.

Nick 7:11
Right, and then take this the thing that sucks, but takes away the side effect that you got from the other thing. And that’s when you can sell. And

Kevin Morley 7:24
so the issue neck is, is that? I mean, certainly what you’re saying is relevant. And I think that in the sport space again, I work with people who are very young, very healthy, you know, essentially no comorbidities in terms of like, you know, really nobody, nobody on any of my teams has been hypertensive have we gotten a diabetic every once in a while. But like, apart from that, there aren’t a lot of what you’re describing is certainly an issue relative to mainstream America. Thankfully, you know, in the population of people that I deal with, that’s less of a challenge. And I’m not necessarily anti pharma specifically. But I always think that there’s, we as a society are over medicated society. And part of that is the patient’s fault. Because a patient walks in the office and says, I have a sinus infection. I want a Z pack. And I’m not leaving without it. And if you Dr. Nick told me no, I’m gonna go to you, Dr. Pete, because I know that you’re going to tell me yes. And I think that’s a societal issue, you know, is the medical deliveries, of course, but we as patients are too, like, we’re not without fault. So there’s a lot of people that are the opposite, they don’t want to take any pills. And I said, Well, you’ve, you’ve got an infection in your elbow, or whatever, like, this is a really big deal. And we’re gonna have to wash this up, you’re gonna, I mean, so there’s obviously both sides of the coin. And so what we always like to talk about is, what is the pathology? Or what is it that we’re treating? And is there an end in sight for that? If you have pain, and you need to take Tylenol, Advil for a tendinopathy, or a burst issue or a muscle problem or whatever, but the sub necessarily, certainly not wrong. But, you know, oftentimes people, you know, two Advil turns into four advil and it goes from twice a day, three times a day to four times a day, and I’m not anti Advil, I’m just not sure why that’s really not necessary. So Advil in my house, I mean, I mean, I would give up go to my kids right now if they needed it, but, but not in perpetuity, but I think that’s societally

Nick 9:20
that well that’s it right there. I mean, it’s what we’ve been taught or what I learned being in the medical field, too, right? Of course, Advil is fine for a headache. That’s, you know, something like that. You’re not taking it every day. You’re not taking it like you know, you’re you’re taking it multiple times a day, for weeks, months and some people years. And, and that’s really what you’re saying, like Doctor, I mean, that that’s what I would I would think that people don’t realize just because it’s on a shelf, at your Costco, in a gigantic troth of it, or at CVS and so readily available, does not mean it’s safe. I mean, it’s as safe as taken as per needed, not abused or gone overboard with I mean, I put that there’s so

Kevin Morley 10:08
little, there’s almost nothing that I put in my body that’s without risk. Advil has risk. cannabinoids in cannabis has some level of risk. Chocolate cake has risk, and I’m positive that red wine has risk. I know that it’s cardioprotective. And I like to tell everybody what to do. But like, but

Pete 10:30
that second bottle,

Kevin Morley 10:32
yeah, like nothing is without risk. So understand cost benefit analysis, right? What is the risk? If I take Advil twice a day for three or four days? Because I pulled them off of my back lifting or whatever? That’s a pretty low level risk. But I’d be willing to sign up for that risk. Do I want to take 800 milligrams Michael four times a day for 40 years? No, not really, that’s not a risk that I personally am interested in signing up for. And the same way with cake are Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups and red wine. I mean, so even the things that we tout as being healthy for us? Well, I think healthy shouldn’t be to generally be in quotes. But I think the things that we think, are safe and healthy, we also need to consider what long term use of anything you know, and more importantly, is it is it part of the conversation? Is it safe? It’s also do I still need this? Like, maybe it’s safe to continue to take this but like, is it really accomplishing anything? Because if you don’t, very true example, I work in the sports medicine community knee braces, right? So you have an ACL tear meniscus, or whatever you put on a knee brace? Do you need braces have a purpose? My personal belief is that you don’t need to wear a brace for the rest of your career. That’s my personal opinion. And I can explain to you why. But some people well, I tore my ACL when I was a junior in high school and awareness for the rest of my for the rest of my life. Well, is that unsafe? No, it’s not unsafe? Is it unhealthy? No, it’s not unhealthy. But do you need it? I would argue that you don’t. So it had a period of time the same way Advil, Tylenol does if you have a fever or whatever else. So I think people you know, need to find the things that are working best for them, given the situation that they’re at, not having trouble sleeping anymore. Maybe, maybe CBN is really powerful for you in situations where, you know, sleep is an issue, and then maybe your job changes or whatever, maybe it’s not anymore, okay. But I mean, there’s no flood, and maybe there’s inflammatory pathologies, you know, CBG CBC, like maybe some of those are pretty cool. There’s, you know, there’s an app for that, right? Like, there’s something that can help you with all these different things. And just like in a inflammation paradigm, we’ll talk about the things the non pharmaceutical, non, you know, non adjustable ways that we can address inflammation to and if CBC and CBG as a part of that for a period of time, okay, great. But, you know, probably doesn’t have to be forever, but I think it’s important people understand what you know, what the risk is, I’ll be it understanding that the risk for some things is very, very low. And then also, what, what is it scratching? And how long do you need it? Because you don’t, you know, I think we just get into this habit of like, you know, like, the little pill thing that you know, about one Monday, I take this on Tuesday, I take this wall, if you need that I’m on board completely. But if you don’t, then that seems wasteful and kind of expensive.

Nick 13:25
Well, one of the things I always thought with braces, being in sports and stuff like that is it doesn’t let your muscles and and again, I could be totally wrong on this. i This is my own personal, but I just felt like if I was strong enough not to have my brace. I liked not having the brace on if I tweaked my knee or spirit that or, and I would take it off because I felt like my knee would be stronger. Not having the brace

Pete 13:50
as a crutch. Well, yeah, you don’t want to get used to rely on

Nick 13:53
you know, and I felt I maybe that was my mental I don’t know, but I was just like, mentally don’t want to be wearing I mean, it’s, it’s a pain. But no, it’s, um, of course it helps. But when you felt like your knee was strong enough, like, take it off, you’d have more mobility, you’d have this and if you don’t really need it. Try again, I don’t know what that was, you know, but I think people do that with a lot of things. You know, they tried to do that with allergy medication and like, give yourself small doses of something and get your body used to it. So then your own body can fight an allergy instead of always relying on Benadryl or claridon or window while it’s

Kevin Morley 14:33
because allergy medication is a perfect example because it’s you know, depending on where you live obviously typically sees a home seasonal allergies for a reason. And so like Yeah, and you know, where I live in Tennessee, it was really bad towards the beginning of the spring. It kind of took a dive for a while it wasn’t really bad in some ways. It’s a million degrees outside. Now. I mean, it’s not really cooling off necessarily but you know, towards the end of the summer, beginning of the fall, they got the allergens and everything is changing a little bit and so you know, I’m I’m more congested and stuffy Now that I was a week ago,

Nick 15:02
and now I feel it too. Yeah, so but, but I personally

Kevin Morley 15:05
chose not to take an allergy medication for like the last two or three months, because I didn’t need it. Now I do and I’ll probably need it for the next two or three weeks. And, and I’ll take it, and then I don’t really need it anymore. So I mean, there’s always an exit strategy.

Nick 15:21
No, and I think that that’s, you know, when we go into our gyms, but it’s so funny, I, I was like an anti allergy right now I feel like it helps. I just take it a little bit like when it’s really bad. And then I don’t take it. And I feel like Yeah, and I, but I do feel like it really does help me. But it just gets my body reset. To be ready to fight again. Like it gives me that a little bit of help. And then you know, when my body’s kind of reeling it has inflammation so but let’s talk about real quick we’ll go back to CBC and CBG because that’s not a bunch of talked about kinda boy and I know you love the minor cannabinoids. The benefits of those two, what do you see? Where do you see the where they fit into the every day? The the athlete? Just where do you see the benefits? I’m not really sure

Kevin Morley 16:14
yet. I know that because most of my interest is focusing on CB n. That’s probably where I do more and more of my time. However, I will say that, you know, CBG, often referred to as the mother cannot avoid a joke or it might even be you know, higher than the mother maybe it’s the grandmother it can happen. Right? And so you know, if you

Nick 16:38
if you read I’m Why do you say that? Why do they call that that

Kevin Morley 16:41
because of the way that it’s founded, especially as the plant ages over time. And so if you if we go into chemistry class, and you’ll see that the cannabinoids, the you know, in the acidic cannabinoids have turned the cannabinoids, and then over time they denature. And so, and they kind of there’s, if I have a slide that I can find somewhere, but it kind of shows like The progression over time. And so CBG, you know, is found very prevalently in the plant, and is considered to have for many people, a really potent anti inflammatory effect. Some people report also, it gives you a little bit, you know, less the psychedelic effect, people will report that it helps oftentimes people who have you know, anxiety will report a hate to use of cannabis or blunting of the anxiety, right? Yeah, so, you know, different for every person. But that’s, you know, that’s what I’m reading about when, you know, when people talk about that, and you know, and they’re becoming more available in the cannabinoid space. And so if you for a period of time, the only thing that wasn’t cannabis that was available was CBD, right? And everybody’s got CBD. And people walked around talking about how CBD cures everything, which of course, it doesn’t, because nothing cures everything. And so, you know, now we’re learning about, again, going back to the 120 140, whatever, you know, minor cadavers have been identified, you know, CBC CBG, in my mind, are really kind of the next, the next frontier, I think it’s the next group of cannabinoids, I will start to have some more kind of societal awareness. And people will learn again, how each one affects each person. And so because it is so different, you know, I oftentimes come back. Many people say that CBC does this. And so is it the CBC directly replace Advil to CBC replace our ro? No, CBC doesn’t replace any of those things. CBC has a different effect for each person. Oftentimes, it does have a little bit of a calming effect. And oftentimes, it does have a very potent anti inflammatory effect, but each person is going to be different. And you’ll just need to kind of work through that on your own to decide how to identify how it affects you.

Nick 18:58
Well, you know, in in one of our products that we have in pure relief, we specifically isolated like CBN for pure sleep, but we use CBG, specifically for pure relief, because it is a very strong anti inflammatory. I don’t know you had a chance to try that one as well. But, but that is why when, after specifically that cannabinoid and, and I’m look, I’m not trying to, it’s just that we’re, we’re, we’re ahead of the curve. And we’ve been doing this for a while, and we’ve been doing a lot of research on these cannabinoids. Like, for example, we launched peer relief, almost a year and a half ago. And we started working on it three years ago. That’s how long it’s taken to, to really bring it to market. But we just knew the benefits and that’s what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to address certain conditions with cannabinoids because there are benefits, not just CBD, right and all these different minor cannabinoids and I love that you’re studying this and I love that you’re doing all the work that you’re you’re doing at FIU with the CBN and And you know, the other thing I was, you know, I was talking about his last year, the National Athletic Trainers Association started up a cannabinoid Task Force to help athletic trainers address the demand for information related to cannabis and cannabinoids, and you’re an active member. Yeah. So I was just saying, you know, I’d love to know, the response and the progress that the NACA has made. Because it’s, it’s, it’s an amazing I, again, we were talking about in the beginning, how doctors just don’t have enough knowledge and trainers. And so what are you pressing? And how’s that working?

Kevin Morley 20:33
Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. And I didn’t even ask you to bring that up. But thank you for bringing that up. Because this was wild. And this was I can take, you know, I was involved in I can take no credit for getting it started. It had nothing to do with me. Dr. Jeff Conant at FIU, who’s recently a member of the National Athletic Trainers Association Hall of Fame,

Nick 20:50
which we want to try to get them off your head

Kevin Morley 20:53
this and this was, you know, this was really his, you know, his brainchild. And so he, he proposed it to the national Athletic Trainers Association, who hopped on board right away and said, you know, Dr. Cohn and take this and run with it. And like, let’s make this work for our membership, and kudos and NTTA. And kudos to the membership for really digesting and really hopping on board. Kudos to the Association for taking the stand to say this isn’t this is important for our membership. Because, you know, a lot of we weren’t just talking about cannabis, we were talking about cannabinoids as well. And so because there’s, you know, our membership is, there’s like 45, or 50,000 athletic trainers in the United States. And certainly, there’s some external to United States as well. But you know, our membership, my colleagues and NTTA work at high schools and junior high schools, and you know, sports medicine clinics and doctors offices and insurance companies and an ergonomic settings and for pharma, and for all sorts of different kinds of medical delivery paradigms. And like, I was explaining, like I was getting asked questions, we they are getting asked the same questions. And you know, in many people, it felt similarly to what we’ve kind of shared, very overwhelmed and under informed uninformed. So we took the opportunity on with Dr. Conan’s guidance. You know, we put together some really awesome resources for athletic trainers that they can use to help drive those conversations. It just answered those questions. And so the, you know, we’re not we’re not trying to it’s not an advocacy group, nobody’s advocating for the use of anything. We’re advocating for the information and the education. And so the same way high school, you know, high school football players or high school volleyball, whatever will ask the athletic trainer or even their coach, about, you know, my brother, my mom, whatever, I saw this on TV, what should I do? Martha Stewart and Snoop Dogg say this, and Gronk says this, And Megan Rapinoe says this, like, these, these celebrities have platforms. And so you know, at some level, you know, so people want to follow them. And that’s okay, sometimes. So our task force was really exciting, because we did a lot of really good work, and there was maybe 15 or 20 people on it, and it was awesome. And so we provided some resources for athletes to answer a lot of the questions that you know, that we’ve just talked about, you know, today relative to what is the endocannabinoid system? And how does it work? International law, how Don’t you know traveling TSA, dosage methods of administration FAQs, CoA is I mean, it’s not basic, meaning like, Oh, this is really simple, you should already know this. It’s basic meaning this is like the foundation of your knowledge about this space. So whatever state you live in, or municipality that you live in, and whatever governs you, you know, we’re talking about, you know, FedEx and UPS and you know, zero tolerance and those things, and maybe isolette product is the best for you. If those situations, if that’s not you, then a broad spectrum product is probably better than a full spectrum product is probably even better than that. But what does that even mean? Right? Like, what’s the difference between those three things, which is really, really critical information that certainly is readily available on Google and everywhere else, but most people just don’t know that. And so there you go, put together these documents to help our membership. And what was crazy was, we were invited to our present. na ta has an annual clinical symposium and meeting this year was in Philly. And so we were invited to present the findings of our task force. Myself, Jeff Cohen, and Tiffany mort, from the Kansas City Chiefs were kind of appointed by the group to provide this presentation. And we went on we had like this really inopportune times when it was the last day of the conference, like 11am when everybody’s supposed to be checking out of their hotel. And if they show up at the conference at all on last day, they’re usually like pushing their suitcase around and just trying to get there last week.

Pete 24:45
The shuttle from the night before.

Kevin Morley 24:47
Exactly. And we like we packed this room, there’s probably I don’t know how to 50 seats in this room. There was a button every seat there were people it’s funny, I have some pictures, people took pictures and text them to be out After there were people like three, four or five deep in the hallway that couldn’t even get into the room. There are people sitting some floor, at what point Jeff Conan was talking at the podium, he had people completely behind him sitting on the corner in the foyer. And so it was so cool because backstage

Pete 25:16
pass level. Yeah,

Kevin Morley 25:18
exactly. Everyone was saying, like, we are thirsty for this information, because we don’t know how to answer these questions. But what was even more exciting, was that there was there was a quite a few faculty members, who said, you know, I teach athletic training, education. I’m training the athletic trainers of tomorrow, I teach, you know, human anatomy and physiology I teach like injury, physiology, pathophysiology, et cetera, et cetera. How do I teach this? I’m not sure where to put this in my curriculum, you know, where should I put this? How should I, you know, how should I tie it into therapeutic exercise, and, you know, acute injury assessment and all of these things, and we’re like, holy, this is so cool to even have this conversation. And we’ve already been invited back to the same meeting next year, there’s, you know, 1000s, and 1000s. Come in here, which is super cool. Because, again, we just wanted to kind of shed some light on the topic, because, you know, hemp is legal everywhere in the United States. And so you know, you know, cannabis, again, is a separate conversation. And so everybody’s interest is going to be different because of their personal interests and experience, as well as because of the state that they live in, and kind of what the laws are governing that. But that statement does not pertain that. Hemp is cool for everyone. And so that’s why it’s important to us to provide just access. And so if you want to come and talk great, and if you want to access our documents, great, you know, they’re password protected behind any team membership wall, but for the 50,000 athletic trainers, you know, in the United States and abroad, they have access to these documents rapidly, which was really, really cool to be able to be a part of that.

Nick 26:53
And still going right, so when they’re adding stuff every single day, um, again, how far we’ve come. I mean, we’re not talking about not but yet, but Right. But yet, there’s so much more that we listen, that we hear, and we’re listening to that’s out there, more that we’re finding out. It’s just, it’s insane. The amount of knowledge that this one plant is providing that every different demographic, every walk of life, again, we say it on every show, here, we have an athletic trainer, who talks to the top level athletes and helps the top level athletes in the world, and is having the same conversations that the average person is having, because they’re looking for either the same relief, you know, maybe they do different things, but they’re, but they’re looking for alternatives. They’re looking for a healthy and safe and legal option. And that’s honestly for education as well. That’s why I got into him, right? So I got into hemp there in the beginning, because I really didn’t want to deal. I don’t want to say deal. But I just saw so many more medical benefits on this side than I did on just straight cannabis of THC. That and then of course, the legality issues. And that’s why I decided to go into this space. You talked about Epidiolex I actually worked on on Epidiolex years ago. So um, so it was just kind of like, being from a medical background. This is a passion, passion of me, for me to do this. But you know, it’s funny, just you saying broad spectrum, you know, isolate, we talk and we rattle these things off, and most of the population don’t even understand what we’re saying. So the fact that you’re helping with this education that people are starving to, I mean, think about how the beginning of this conversation started. You’re talking about doctors ago. There’s not enough, there’s not enough information. I’m not interested. There’s nothing that now you’re talking about a taskforce that’s been put together, that people are lining up rooms, that thirsty for this knowledge, but it because it does exist. It’s just do you want to learn what’s in your food? Do you want to learn what’s good for you? Do you want to do you want to learn how to be a better person? You gotta, you gotta you gotta learn. You got to try to better yourself. You can’t just it’s not just gonna come to you. I mean, people wish I’m waiting for that $10 million check from a big man. Yeah. I don’t know where but somehow somehow I actually have to get up in the morning and make it worse. So why would it be any different in this situation, and especially with so many doctors that, look, we know that what they’re taught, we know why they’re taught, you know, in traditional medicine and stuff. They’ve been being taught the same stuff for, you know, forever. This is new. Now, the newer doctors that we know and it’s not just DEOs we’re MDS Are you know, they’re they’re always open to it. It’s really what we Have the trouble is talking to more of the older doctors and stuck in their way. And you know, it’s funny because you talk about low and slow. We do talk a lot to rheumatologist as well and things like that. And, you know, doctors like that. And they are. They had a problem with the opiates because they weren’t educated enough. And when they were starting to give out these opiates to their patients, they were maybe not miss dosing. Okay. And that led to some of the opiate crisis was doctors giving the wrong dosage and things like that. Whereas now it looks like, you know, there’s two schools of thought here are handling it.

Nick 30:46
And then there’s to do what we’re told to do, and what we say that is worried and what the pharmaceutical companies and the reps tell us to do. And there’s two different agendas there, right, but, um, but use these things, because you need them not, don’t use them as a crutch. Nobody’s telling you to use cannabis, it’s going to improve your life. Because, you know, I know that everybody gets liquid cards when they drink alcohol. And it makes them, you know, look, if it makes your day better. And you just want to, you know, you’re smoking marijuana, you’re taking edibles, and that’s what you want. And that’s what you’re into great. Because your mental health is important too, right. But if you really have problems, or you do have, you know, sleeping issues or anxiety, or you have inflammation or get educated people understand what cannabinoids are, what why what quality of product, that is, why what’s going to work for me is not going to work for my spouse, or my mother, or brother. And it doesn’t matter how big or tall or fat or skinny or it doesn’t matter what color your skin is, cannabis brings everybody together. And it’s also you need to find out what works for you. And,

Kevin Morley 31:56
you know, just relative to the point about the physicians, and I’m very critical times of this, of this approach of like throwing our hands up in the air, there’s no information. The American Medical Association has acknowledged that, you know, cannabis and cannabinoids are here and a part of the medical delivery system. And obviously, again, with the disclaimer being that every state is different. You know, the gentleman, the chair of the American Medical Association’s Task Force, flew in from a he was on vacation in Hawaii, he lives in Pennsylvania, but he was on vacation in Hawaii and left his vacation in Hawaii to fly to Orlando a few weeks ago, to meet with us as part of as part of this, you know, discussion of cannabis and sports. And so, you know, kudos to him personally, as the chair of this task force, and you know, there, obviously, there’s, there’s a lot of providers, and everybody’s knowledge in this space is very different. And it can be a very poor as a very personal issue for a lot of people. However, the American Medical Association is not pretending that this doesn’t exist. So I do want to say, as much as I do get frustrated at times, the American Medical Association is acknowledging this is a thing, it’s here to stay. This is really, really helping a lot of people. And so we the AMA, you know, we need to understand it better. So the na ta has done that, and continues to do that. And obviously, as this landscape changes, you know, Jeff Cronin and myself and Tiffany Morgan, the rest of the folks on the task force will continue to update documents as they you know, warrant updating, the AMA is doing that too. And so I want to be really respectful of that, because they are doing real work. And so some people are saying, it’s easier for me to say that there’s no research and they never have to answer the question. They’re not all things. And so a lot of providers, a lot of physicians, OTs, NPS, pas everybody else, a lot of them are saying, this is a thing. We want to learn more about it. And so you know, they’re asking for the high level research studies that we all want. And it’s you know, it is challenging, especially domestically, it’s hard to get those things, even even the non even non cannabis Saudis, like we’re doing cannabinoid research at FIU. And it’s not easy to get that through IRB, and you get frustrated by that all you want, and certainly has frustrated me as well. But it doesn’t matter. Like there is a process and the process is there to protect human subjects. And so whether I think that this is a risk or not, doesn’t really matter that much because I’d have to convince you know, the IRB at FIU or Western IRB or whoever else you’re using, as kind of your vetting agency needs to be safe for people. And you know, the people usually doing the research are obviously convinced that they’re doing something safe don’t hurt anybody. But you have to convince other people to so the AMA is just saying, hey, there’s not enough of the highest level research that we the AMA would like and I agree that right there, they’re wrong and saying there’s no research so the people that are saying not are wrong, but the people that are saying, Hey, we really like better content. I’m on board, and I agree with Thurman, I thanked me for the knowledge in that any TA has done this, that’s great, you know, the APTA has done something as well. But like, for the AMA, you know, the leading group in the medical delivery system, Hendrix called the American Medical Association, right. So it’s a really, really big deal for them to allocate either funds or people power personnel bandwidth, like, that’s a really big deal. And so I want to make sure that in whatever, you know, as public of a forum, as that says, like, I really want to make sure that, you know that I get that out that, that the AMA is doing something about it, and they that they’re on board with this being part of our society and trying to understand what’s safe and healthy for the, you know, for the population. But a lot of the a lot of the population is more complicated than and like I mentioned before, the people that I deal with are, you know, it’s a very small niche market. Right. And so for the rheumatologist for the people, you know, for the people working with, like, the aging population who have all these other medications on board, I have no idea how to do I have no idea how to be part of that conversation. I know nothing about how this interacts with, you know, your statins in your Lipitor, and what anything else, they I don’t know that Coumadin like all those other things, I have no idea. And so the pharmacology people need to be a part of this conversation. And you know, in the medical provider, people need to be part of this conversation at some level farmer does too, right. So it takes a village. And, and for me, I’m interested in, you know, what I’m seeking is the information, again, not coming from the side of, you know, any manufacturer or anything like that, I want people to understand, you know, what’s out there, and just how they can educate themselves about it. And then, you know, kind of whatever happens next, as long as it’s done safely and legally is, you know, it’s for them to choose. Yeah,

Nick 36:53
so where did where do you suggest that, you know, I guess, tell us where they should go. If they do want some other information, anywhere that you suggest that they should start looking for getting their own information. So you know, I think that

Kevin Morley 37:06
really to kind of reiterate, I said before, the trouble is that the, the trouble is that there is really good information, and a lot of it is provided by manufacturers. And that’s a tough hurdle to get over. Because I have manufacturers that I really trust. And I know they want the best for their clients. You as a manufacturer, you don’t want to produce certain you don’t want to produce a product that’s going to make somebody sick, because they’re gonna go online and tell everybody about it. You don’t want to produce a product that’s going to make somebody that you said, has no THC in it done a failed drug test, because they’re gonna go online and tell everybody about it. You don’t want to hurt anybody. And you also don’t want to produce a product that you’re making specific claims about or recommendations about. And then it doesn’t do those things. And then people go online and say, pure Wildfox. And it didn’t do the things that it said. So you’re incentivized for all the right reasons to take care of the population. That said, as a consumer, I might not want to go listen to pure well tell me how great pure well is right? But I don’t know how to fix that. Because a lot of the people with oftentimes the best knowledge, the most up to date knowledge are the manufacturers themselves. So I’m not answering a question at all, because that’s really my answer. I will say that the medical side, there is there are certainly relative to cannabis physicians, there’s a whole consortium of cannabis physicians that can help educate other physicians and patients, I’m sure that’s online. Again, you know, that’s not something that I have a lot of knowledge about. I always start, I always tell people start with somebody that you trust, this is a personal issue. And for those of us who grew up in like the Nancy Reagan war on drugs, like this is a very personal thing. And so as you know, because that’s what the message was at the time, it’s gonna take society, society some time to undo that if it can be undone. And so the information that you’re going to really latch on to and really kind of fueling your digestive acid is going to come from somebody that you trust. And so my question would be to my position, athletic trainer, or physical therapist, whomever, you know, I have this pathology, this is what I’m thinking about taking what you think. And if hopefully, that person if you trust that person, hopefully, if their answer is, I don’t really know that my follow up question as a patient would be, can you help me find someone who does? But now let’s put it back into the hands of the physician who has just said, I don’t really know that much about it, and that’s okay. And I love that answer. That’s okay. If you don’t know, me, don’t make it up. You know, just say you don’t know. That’s my problem. So that said, I think the follow up for the patient can be and should be, can you help me find someone who does? And if the physician, athletic trainer, physical therapist, ot whomever wants to help you, and I’d like to think that they do a little due diligence to say, oh, shoot, like, I don’t actually have an answer to that question. I don’t really know. Who knows, there are resources available and again, I’m not you know, married to any of them specifically. But, you know, everybody’s vocation and and kind of what’s available to them is so different, that it can be challenging, but again, you know, with, you know, none of us are in the same play lottery you guys might be, but like, you know, we’re obviously not in it together. And we do. You know, thanks to zoom and FaceTime and everything else, you can talk to somebody on the moon, as long as you have Wi Fi. So I think there are resources available. And it just takes a little bit of work to find out where they are, but it’s definitely out there.

Pete 40:19
Oh, yeah, and the work that we are providing here, and it’s great to have someone like, you know, a doctor who are coming from another angle. So it’s not just the voice of the people are not just the voice of the player, but now you’re getting it from another side as well. So if we all keep on pushing forward, and kind of repeating this narrative over and over again, the recognition is going to grow, and we’re gonna see more, you know, movement on this plant that, you know, we’ve been screaming about for a long time. So, you know, I have to say, it’s been a pleasure with you, for sure their doctor, and it’s been excellent, just the information we’ve gotten from you. And knowing that again, you guys err on the side of right, because, you know, it’s better to have a doctor, like you said, that doesn’t know than having a doctor that is not willing to know. So you know, that’s kind of where you want to go. So like you said, we got to just keep going, getting everybody educated and finding the right sources. So, you know, look at the sources that you can you can check us out or follow us more you can on cannabis, radio, I heart, iTunes, Apple Music, Spotify, and Amazon for everything else. hempire You know where to find us pure well.com You guys have a wonderful day and we do appreciate your time again today. Thanks, guys.

Nick 41:27
Thank you. Okay, so you’re going to stay on because we have to. We have to let it download. So and then if we could a bumper just real quick definitely want to get up on me stop this now. First of all, first of all, Kevin was

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Ryan VandenBussche Special | Hempire

Born February 28th 1973, he grew up playing hockey in Delhi, Ontario (near Simcoe, Ontario). He enjoyed playing the game and hanging out with his friends on the ice. When he watched NHL games, Wendel Clark was his favorite player because of his mix of talent and toughness.

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